Re: Twilight Imperium 3 - Sunday 24th April 2016

**Admin** Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:03

John - that made me laugh... Although you did forget to mention...

that every round their will be a major discussion about a law which will change the rules of the game. After what perhaps feels like hours of discussion the same decision will be reached - vote in a way which can screw over Aneurin the most (even though technically he isn't winning - he will end up 2nd or 3rd anyway so this a good plan).

also that I'm very good a renegotiating the terms of any alliance I may strike up.

See you at 10.30am on Sunday. I'm picking Karl up at 10am. From Hillsbrough. Anyone else need a lift? Paul will you sort out the piles of galaxy tiles...

BeardyTom Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:12

"renegotiating"

**DaveB** Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:23

BeardyTom wrote:"renegotiating"

<Vader>I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.</Vader>

Scott_Fryer Wed 20 Apr 2016, 14:06

DaveB wrote:
BeardyTom wrote:"renegotiating"

<Vader>I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.</Vader>

**Admin** Wed 20 Apr 2016, 14:15

Vader - now there is a man that got stuff done...

Jamie Wed 20 Apr 2016, 14:26

Just noticed I'm sat next to my good buddy ~~Darth Vader~~ Aneurin. Very Happy

Oh, and I haven't chosen yet; can I have L1Z1X Mindnet please?

**Admin** Wed 20 Apr 2016, 14:44

KarlB: Emirates of Hacan or Shardak-Norr
Steve: Ghosts of Creuss or Embers of Muaat
Clive: Federation of Sol or Nekro Virus
PaulG: Yin Brotherhood or Mentak Coalition
Jamie: L1Z1X Mindnet or Arborec
Aneurin: Barony of Letnev or Universities of Jol-Nar
JohnH: Xxcha Kingdom or Winnu
TomW: Naalu Collective or Yssaril Tribes

That's us all declared. And I like how no-one is bothered that Steve is starting the game with Warsuns!

So Jamie - shall we discuss the terms of our alliance now? You want to win you need to be part of the best.

paulyg Wed 20 Apr 2016, 14:51

Aneurin wrote:So Jamie - shall we discuss the terms of our alliance now? You want to win you need to be part of the best.

I think Jamie knows which neighbour is his friend and which his enemy by now :-)

**Admin** Wed 20 Apr 2016, 14:52

Yes remind me what you did to him last game Paul Wink

He can befriend a pirate race if he wants... that will steal his goods and making raids on his outer territories. Or he can join the ~~Empire~~ Barony and rule the galaxy as Magnetic Dr K and Mr Qwok.

paulyg Wed 20 Apr 2016, 15:11

Aneurin wrote:Yes remind me what you did to him last game Paul

What - lived in peace and let him take one of my minor colonies to help him hit an objective? Sound like the actions of a long-term ally to me!

Jamie Wed 20 Apr 2016, 15:22

Aneurin wrote:I like how no-one is bothered that Steve is starting the game with Warsuns!

I don't mind so much, he's not sat next to me!

I little surprised Nekro Virus are not in the game this time though; esp. given that they would have been next to War Suns. Actually, looks like a similar race selection to last time?

Aneurin wrote:So Jamie - shall we discuss the terms of our alliance now? You want to win you need to be part of the best.

All I have to declare is my peaceful intent. Shocked

Jamie Wed 20 Apr 2016, 15:26

PaulG wrote:What - lived in peace and let him take one of my minor colonies to help him hit an objective? Sound like the actions of a long-term ally to me!

Hey good buddy Paul!

Yeah, I thought we got along pretty okay last time! I certainly think an absence of early-game aggression, and a decent amount of communication, will benefit the both of us.

**Admin** Wed 20 Apr 2016, 15:28

So was I playing a different game? I seem to remember you being reduced to 1 system in the end Jamie...

The problem with TI3 is that there are some stand out races so the way we run it as a choice of two you generally see the same ones cropping up.

Yssaril
L1z1x
Muatt
Hacan

paulyg Wed 20 Apr 2016, 15:33

Aneurin wrote:So was I playing a different game? I seem to remember you being reduced to 1 system in the end Jamie...

That was pretty much my fate in the end... thanks to John Smile

Jamie Wed 20 Apr 2016, 15:43

Aneurin wrote:So was I playing a different game? I seem to remember you being reduced to 1 system in the end Jamie...

Yeah, didn't have a great selection of hexes at the start, and I was pretty weakened towards the end (thanks mostly to Neil IIRC).

Aneurin wrote:The problem with TI3 is that there are some stand out races so the way we run it as a choice of two you generally see the same ones cropping up.

Just checked, and yeah, we have the exact same race selection and order as our game in Jan 2016 (different to Oct 2015 though). How are you randomising it? I'm more than happy to knock up a little program or web-page or something to randomise it to your spec, if you like. Maybe have 8 strong races and 8 weak ones, and give each player the option of 1 from each set. Just an idea.

Can't wait for Sunday now!

paulyg Wed 20 Apr 2016, 16:01

Interesting that we selected the same races!

I'm quite happy with the randomisation, but another interesting option could be:
- Determine player order
- Randomly select 9 races
- Draft the races in reverse player order (one doesn't get used, but even player 1 gets a choice)

To try to mitigate the disadvantage of going later in round 1 strategy card selection?

**Admin** Thu 21 Apr 2016, 17:16

Jamie wrote:

Just checked, and yeah, we have the exact same race selection and order as our game in Jan 2016 (different to Oct 2015 though). How are you randomising it? I'm more than happy to knock up a little program or web-page or something to randomise it to your spec, if you like. Maybe have 8 strong races and 8 weak ones, and give each player the option of 1 from each set. Just an idea.

Can't wait for Sunday now!

I wrote a small Matlab program that uses a random number generator. Fairly basic. But with 8 players we get a choice of 16 races (2 each)... that only leaves 1 out! So as their is a known tier it is no surprise that we have similar races playing... https://www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/2gv3l4/ti3_race_rankings/

So the only 'random'ness in the races each game comes from 1 player getting a choice of 2 'good' races and another getting 2 'weak' races. etc. Your idea...

Jamie wrote:

Maybe have 8 strong races and 8 weak ones, and give each player the option of 1 from each set. Just an idea.

Can't wait for Sunday now!

...I'm no expert but... Wouldn't the 8 best always end up getting picked? Why would I pick a weak race? Incentive? We could start looking at races that are always picked and assign bonus tokens to those that weren't picked in the last 2 games?

We could randomise only 8 races but then people get hacked off that they have to play as the plant people or the Turtles.

And in response to Paul, the biggest problem there is the gradient difference (in terms of game strength) of 8 races is probably greater than the seating problem.

systemsam Thu 21 Apr 2016, 19:15

So, apparently I'm now free... If anyone cancels. ..

**Admin** Fri 22 Apr 2016, 08:08

PM me your number Sam... I'll let you know if anyone cans...

**karl_b** Mon 25 Apr 2016, 07:10

So, TI3. I finally got round to playing and as glad as I am that I've given it a go, I don't think I'll be playing it again. It comes down to a few main issues for me:

- I could barely keep track of the rules and what was going on. I knew that was going to happen in my first game but I don't have the time or inclination to give this game the playtime it would need to understand how to play.
- Downtime, there's quite a lot but general chat and the snack table negate a lot of that.
- Conflict. I can take heated debate, confrontation and aggression in a game (as I'm sure people have experienced!) but this just strayed a little too far over the line from gaming banter for me.
- Time. I knew it was a long game but every round, action or consequence is exasperated so significantly. Taking a massive hit puts a downer on hours rather than minutes of your game.

I know that some of the guys who played yesterday are experienced players so wouldn't necessarily want to 'dumb down' the game to reduce their own enjoyment but it I felt completely out of my depth as a newbie. Too many rules, too much action to keep track of, too many players and just too long. Taking a massive beating off Steve didn't help my enjoyment either!

This makes it sound like I didn't have fun, which isn't the case! On the positive side the theme is immense and deep, the space exploration, tech tree and political/negotiation side are all fantastic elements/mechanics. It was a lot of fun just playing a single game for the whole day and I can see how the depth of strategy and time taken to play it out would be more and more fascinating the more you played.

Paul - thanks for being an excellent host. Damn those chocolate brazils and my [failed] attempts to avoid them.

I'd like to congratulate John on a famous victory but I don't think he cares...

JohnH Mon 25 Apr 2016, 08:49

I care. My face was just too tired to express emotions, plus Iim a method player (The Winnu were once a proud and moody race, but once peace reigned through the galaxy they controlled their emotions and became bureaucrats, so the story goes).

I ended up getting 8 points in the final 2 rounds (5 in the last) to come out of nowhere really. I goaded Jamie into going overboard on his vendettas because I was in a rotten mood after Steve beat me. It actually turned out to be the best thing I did as it really opened up my side of space (and in the process shut BOTH Aneuirn and Jamie down, opening it up even further for me), and once that happened I just went for it and it would've been very hard to stop me getting those 5 points in that final round.

Other than my pity party trying to ruin the galaxy with Jamie, I only ever attacked anyone to get a point. I attacked Tom once for an objective, and made it quite clear that it wasn't for any other reason (I didn't even try to take a planet when I could have taken them easily), I attacked Steve twice trying to get an objective, I failed, but slowed down his game, which someone had to do as he was looking very scary at that point. I attacked Aneuirn once, and I'm not sure I'd even call it an attack as all I did was take over an almost deserted system to complete a goal.

I feel this is where the crux of the game is, and certainly something I'll try to involve in future games I play. If you know how the players near you will respond to certain things (or even if they're trustworthy) you can easily manipulate the board, and make moves at the right time. Tom and Aneurin (and PaulG for sure) are staunch "we make moves for victory points only" type of players, so attacking one of them early wouldn't have hurt me or bogged down my game in a long war. Jamie though, is clearly the type of guy who will go hell for leather and throw everything at you for daring to even look like you might some day sneeze in his direction, even if it means losing the game himself. I think Karl stumbled upon something similar (maybe a more balanced approach to vendettas) with Steve after killing 1 ship over a nothing territory and then losing his homeworld.

Interestingly, this in turn enabled me to mount my failed attack on Steve's homeworld, which ultimately slowed him down. I will say that last game when I was sat next to Steve he played it completely differently though, allowing me an attack (which also failed, now that I think about it, due to me not knowing his racial power) for an attempted VP.

We had it last game too with several people promising to throw away the game in never ceasing war for the sake of 1 fighter taken by someone else for an objective. People say you win by going for points, which is true, but how you get points is by playing the players at the table more so than the game, the actual moves you take are just book keeping (granted there is a lot to keep track of), preparations, and actually claiming points. I think a lot of games just don't have that aspect where you can totally take the game away from the board, if you understand me.

In my first game I messed up a lot of the little rules like how many ships I was allowed to build and where I could put them, and gaps in my knowledge about special powers were a hindrance sometimes. Even in this game I relied heavily on Aneurin and Tom for double checking when I was doing things. There is almost too much game, but if I was going to spend a whole day playing a game, I haven't yet played one that would trump this.

**Admin** Mon 25 Apr 2016, 09:21

JohnH wrote:
Tom and Aneurin (and PaulG for sure) are staunch "we make moves for victory points only" type of players, so attacking one of them early wouldn't have hurt me or bogged down my game in a long war.

And that is why you fail Twisted Evil

. I change my style depending on the game. Yesterday when I was royally screwed by the distant sun tokens... I was forced to dig in and think more and more about table talk to prevent total wipe out. Then I dug in and concentrated on a VP game - my cards helped there. Built up in my home system to scare wondering eyes... then hit Jamie quickly to get my preliminary objective early while he was distracted. My tactic of pulling Tom and Paul into this to prevent Jamie's retaliation failed - so I had to play Jamie more - get him to shift out of the way so I could head to Metacol for my secret - the laws helped me loads in this game. I took Metacol - ignored my usual strategy card advice - and hit diplomacy hard to prevent anyone taking it from me.

But on the turn I had secured my secret and the public objective for Metacol - my table talk had failed me (I couldn't convince Jamie of the threat from yourself - Paul/Tom weren't moving in to pincer him for VPs so I was a sitting duck) and Jamie moved in for my home system. If he hadn't I would have been 2 points in the lead.

At the same time and it went un-noticed I had convinced Tom to hand me the speaker token. I would have taken number 8 (as you ended up doing) and put a different public objective in play... for the following round I had an action card that would have meant I could keep number 8 and hopefully stolen victory through Imperium Rex on either turn.

And if my start had been better I would have played a different game.

And that's why I love the game - as you say - its all about table talk... it is an experience not a game. It can get heated (what happened yesterday was nothing compared to past events) but at the end of the day it's all good fun.

Ask Beardy Tom if I always play that staunch VP seeking game... or whether I will just crush people for fun (if I don't see a way to win - or need to show my dominance - as Steve did with karl).

JohnH Mon 25 Apr 2016, 10:58

Aneurin wrote:
JohnH wrote:
Tom and Aneurin (and PaulG for sure) are staunch "we make moves for victory points only" type of players, so attacking one of them early wouldn't have hurt me or bogged down my game in a long war.

And that is why you fail . I change my style depending on the game. Yesterday when I was royally screwed by the distant sun tokens... I was forced to dig in and think more and more about table talk to prevent total wipe out. Then I dug in and concentrated on a VP game - my cards helped there. Built up in my home system to scare wondering eyes... then hit Jamie quickly to get my preliminary objective early while he was distracted. My tactic of pulling Tom and Paul into this to prevent Jamie's retaliation failed - so I had to play Jamie more - get him to shift out of the way so I could head to Metacol for my secret - the laws helped me loads in this game. I took Metacol - ignored my usual strategy card advice - and hit diplomacy hard to prevent anyone taking it from me.

But on the turn I had secured my secret and the public objective for Metacol - my table talk had failed me (I couldn't convince Jamie of the threat from yourself - Paul/Tom weren't moving in to pincer him for VPs so I was a sitting duck) and Jamie moved in for my home system. If he hadn't I would have been 2 points in the lead.

At the same time and it went un-noticed I had convinced Tom to hand me the speaker token. I would have taken number 8 (as you ended up doing) and put a different public objective in play... for the following round I had an action card that would have meant I could keep number 8 and hopefully stolen victory through Imperium Rex on either turn.

And if my start had been better I would have played a different game.

And that's why I love the game - as you say - its all about table talk... it is an experience not a game. It can get heated (what happened yesterday was nothing compared to past events) but at the end of the day it's all good fun.

Ask Beardy Tom if I always play that staunch VP seeking game... or whether I will just crush people for fun (if I don't see a way to win - or need to show my dominance - as Steve did with karl).

Yeah, I can totally see how people will change their tactics based on the situation, just as Steve killed Karl this time and yet let me live last time. It definitely helps putting feelers out early on to see where people stand.

Hitting Jamie early was always going to provoke a retaliation though, which you well knew, and Paul would've been a very hard sell if you were looking for help there. I couldn't get Jamie and Paul to go against each other last game either funnily enough, so had to take them both on. I think they're rooted in a long term, game spanning, semi-alliance for some reason. Maybe Jamie is playing an extremely long con and in the winter time game this year he'll pull out some ridiculous and unstoppable coup of the galaxy, stabbing Paul in the back to do it.

It really was tight and I think I got a large slice of luck with the opportunity to win just falling into place for me. I couldn't ever get enough planets to throw my weight around like last time (thanks largely to Karl screwing me twice in the set up and having a hand with only a 0/1, 1/2 and 1/1 single systems), so I had to invest in our alliance (3 trade goods) and keeping Tom sweet. The machinations in this game can get absurd at times and rightly provoked a lot of paranoia about people whispering at the snack table. With so much invested in such a long game it's no wonder tension ramps up right towards the end. I think we were all standing at one point for that final round.

Another point I'd like to bring up is how different I had to play this game compared to the last one because of my race. It made much more of a difference than I was expecting. Is that because the Nekro are so different, or are all the races so removed from each other?

**Admin** Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:36

The races can be different to play...

Last time I was the University - I was trying to maximise out on Tech - but then didn't use it. And logistics (getting around) was a pain.

This time as the Barony - I had the production to afford Tech but only purchased and used the Gravity Drive as the Rift was next to my home system. I think in the last round I got non-Euclidian shields (Barony specific tech) that allowed me to re-roll 2 dice in invasion combat. The rest of the time my production went towards securing planets with OTT ground forces. Logistics were never my problem... Totally different play styles.

The Xxercha Kingdom can play a very political game - and prevent people from ever invading their home planet! With 2 diplomats.

The Shardak Norr you have to play quite aggressive and use your +1...

Mentak are all about early quick raids - L1Z1X are all about massive fleets of dreadnaughts...

Yssarril are about taking their time - reacting after key events... doing anything you can to extend your turn...

Should we start the sign up for the next game and get excited about the next game?

systemsam Mon 25 Apr 2016, 12:58

Aneurin wrote:The races can be different to play...

Last time I was the University - I was trying to maximise out on Tech - but then didn't use it. And logistics (getting around) was a pain.

This time as the Barony - I had the production to afford Tech but only purchased and used the Gravity Drive as the Rift was next to my home system. I think in the last round I got non-Euclidian shields (Barony specific tech) that allowed me to re-roll 2 dice in invasion combat. The rest of the time my production went towards securing planets with OTT ground forces. Logistics were never my problem... Totally different play styles.

The Xxercha Kingdom can play a very political game - and prevent people from ever invading their home planet! With 2 diplomats.

The Shardak Norr you have to play quite aggressive and use your +1...

Mentak are all about early quick raids - L1Z1X are all about massive fleets of dreadnaughts...

Yssarril are about taking their time - reacting after key events... doing anything you can to extend your turn...

Should we start the sign up for the next game and get excited about the next game?

Yes.

Jamie Mon 25 Apr 2016, 17:16

JohnH wrote:I goaded Jamie into going overboard on his vendettas...

Did you? I didn't notice.

Anyhow, I thought you were the specialist when it came to vendettas? It does seem like, ever since that game of Eclipse, you've have this massive bee in your bonnet, and consistently (every game) you go out of your way to try and **** me off.

Right now, I'm feeling like I never want to play that game again; and that's nothing to do with the outcome (who won etc) and everything to do with the manner or spirit in which it's played. It's a shame I feel this way, because I think it's a pretty awesome game.

For example, that thing of making a deal, taking a player's trade goods and then not delivering on that deal. That's just plain BS, there's no need for that kind of thing, and I can't see that it adds anything, other than helping to create a toxic atmosphere.

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