SBGC's Thoughts on Today's Result

Sam - I thought we should embrace change... Or was that a different argument? Who is the one not liking change now? Your view here just smells of 'not getting the result YOU wanted'.  

And I disagree. I don't think the UK will suddenly abandon working rights etc. Look at the regions that tipped the balance in this vote - the old labour heartlands. Working class. Turned up in their droves to vote on this. So if their work conditions changed for the predicted worse - would they not vote out the right wing government? Look at the apathy levels in recent years of general elections. This referendum was something where the common man (I hate that term) felt they could really say 'screw you' to the establishment. And to some extent they have.

Or maybe it will be so bad that the vote will only be given to the Elite gentleman while we scrub the floors of his Downton Abbey? The good old times.

As for the VISA stuff - there is 2 years of negotiation yet before our exit. Wait and see what comes out in the wash. 2 years is a long time for us to end up achieving a Norway - half in half out stance (which based on the vote makes sense). I guess the results of that negotiation depend highly on whether France and Germany spit their dummy. But if they did that could risk the entire EU anyway. Turbulent yes. End of days - no. It also depends on who replaces Cameron in October. You could join the Conservative party and masks your vote stand their if you are that passionate.

Holland have already voted 'leave' some time ago and the government over-ruled it apparently. I don't see Holland in a civil war do you?

P.s - you have a right to be angry (I also am as I was a remain) - but the naysaying wont help anyone.

I'm not attempting to help.  I'm attempting to express and somewhat explain  my anger. Helping can come later. Anger has its place.

Not all change is good - that's a ridiculous comparison and you know it. Progress and positive change is good.  I very strongly believe this isn't.

And the belief that the working classes vote in their best interests is deeply mistaken. It would be more accurate, though over-simplistic, to say that they vote in the interests of the media they read. And a look at newspaper circulation makes for scary reading.

Ok - so assuming that 'they' read rags like the Mirror and the Sun... The former was very pro-Remain. Any idea on the latter?

Sam wrote:

JohnH wrote:This next thing is a bit out there though - Is anyone else really worried that in 50 years time they'll be teaching about this in history class talking about a "domino effect" that led to world war 3? The rise of the right, fracturing of europe etc etc

I like your post John but this bit is the most irrational, unjustified sci-fi level speculation I've seen yet! Leave voters might say: staying in to support an undemocratic superpower with plans to create it's own army could be the start of a domino effect that leads to a world war. Both suggestions are based on nothing. The homeless man who lives outside my nearest Tesco might say: cutting down trees will lead to the aliens coming to cleanse the earth of the human menace.

Oh yeah, like I said, it was a bit out there but I'll have to pull you up on it being irrational, unjustified, and based on nothing.

The old line is that if you dont study history you're doomed to repeat it.

With this in mind we can draw scary parallels with things that have actually happened before: Economic downturn, rise of right wing parties in multiple countries, blaming cultures and people not historically from the region.... Again, these are things that have actually happened before, not fantasy.

It's fair enough to say it probably won't happen, but I haven't just pulled a sci fi army of alien supermen bent on world domination out of my arse.

Also, it's not strictly to do with whether we remained or left, as these things are happening in europe. The UK leaving is just a very right wing move, and might lead to more continental parties doing the same. Thus a greater rise in nationalism (and maybe fascism) across the continent. Marine Le Penn is revelling in Brexit for a reason.

On that note, does anyone know a good purveyor of bunkers?

JohnH wrote:On that note, does anyone know a good purveyor of bunkers?

This could be a whole new business opportunity. Forget board games cafes... board game bunkers are the next big thing!

paulyg wrote:

JohnH wrote:On that note, does anyone know a good purveyor of bunkers?

This could be a whole new business opportunity. Forget board games cafes... board game bunkers are the next big thing!

Make them dungeon crawler themed...

psychomansam wrote: Anger has its place.

Yes... just not sure it's on a forum about boardgames.

psychomansam wrote:Many things apparently.

I get that there will be undesirable consequences, that may affect some people more than others.

I just don't see any pragmatic value in being pessimistic, upset or angry (though of course, as human beings, we can experience all kinds of emotions in response to adverse circumstances). To my mind, things are not that bad; it's not as if we're all tied-up, blind-folded, standing in front of a firing squad, experiencing the very last moments of life...

You'd think though, looking at FB, we're heading for armageddon, WW3 or something. The thing that really concerns me most is people's outlook, which seems way too bleak and negative (not to mention all the pitchforks and recriminations on all the 'idiots' who voted the wrong way). The problem is when people start thinking like that, that we're going down the pan, we start creating that reality for ourselves. Conversely, good things happen when you have a positive outlook and start looking for what is good about the circumstances we find ourselves in. How you (talking to anyone now) respond to adversity, is entirely up to you.

I know this all sounds a bit vague, but also, sometimes, things have to break and fall apart, for something better and more functional to come about.

Hope this finds you all well.

p.s. If the sh!t really does hit the fan; you're all welcome round my Avalon bunker!

Jamie wrote:p.s. If the sh!t really does hit the fan; you're all welcome round my Avalon bunker!

Although after a few games, you may be clawing at the door trying to escape...

evan wrote:

psychomansam wrote: Anger has its place.

Yes... just not sure it's on a forum about boardgames.

Perhaps not. But the conversation is here. It's clearly labelled. You dont need to read it. You don't need to contribute. I might suggest avoiding posting purely to try to belittle or silence the opinions of others. But that's up to you and everyone else who wishes to join in.

I was on a ferry yesterday between England and France. A group of 3 turned up with drinks at the two sofas near us. They'd attempted to reserve one of the sofas with a jumper but it had been taken by others.  They still had a 3 seater sofa and 2 chairs to choose between while drinking their coffee and Stella.  The gentleman, replete with handlebar moustache, turns to make a comment to the group of 5 now using the other sofa. In doing so, he clumsily knocks over all his group's drinks which he'd just put down on the table. His wife isn't best pleased. Stella down her clothes, "Why don't you look what you're doing?" "It's because you were trying to talk to THEM". A very few seconds pause - tension in the air. A change of heart. A turn to the right. "This is YOUR fault." Looks of confusion. "Are you pleased?" More confused looks and something murmured. "What's that? You don't speak English? Oh I see, you don't speak English now? Oh look, they dont speak English now - very convenient!" She continues in this vein. Attempts to make the other group move and give her group their sofa. A very tired looking lady starts getting up to go, but eventually the English group moves away - their table and sofa soaked - spouting spiked complaints about letting "THEM" win.
But it was the English group that won this week. It's them that are celebrating. Not all leave voters were xenophobic or racist victim-blaming bigots. But we all know what the nasty underlying rhetoric of the campaign was. We know there was a turn to the right, and we know it was bigotry that won this battle. We need to realise that. We need to be angry - no matter which way we voted - and we need to fight the growing tide of xenophobia and racism. Else we'll all be victims of what's rising.

There's a petition for a 2nd vote. By all means sign it, but I don't think that will help. Our best chance is probably mass popular pressure for a general election when Cameron steps down. I still don't think it'll work. But we can try.

psychomansam wrote:I might suggest avoiding posting purely to try to belittle or silence the opinions of others.

And there you go - in your own words.

Most of your anger (and that of other REMAINers) presumably stems from the 'wrong' decision being made. Belittling their democratic choice (it's all lies, the country will fall apart, they don't know what they have done, how is this good? etc) rather than supporting this majority choice (please don't start an argument about the democratic process - it is what it is and we are all happy when it goes our way!). And extrapolating (or just looking at facebook) then to calling the people that voted this way stupid idiots/racist/old bigots running the country for the young. Is that acceptable? No. Not in anyway. You (in the royal sense here) become no different from your very perception of the people you are insulting.

Even/Jamie (echoing my original post) are right. This isn't the place for name calling and doom and gloom about how broken things are. Say you didn't support the result and move on - therefore NOT belittling or silencing the opinions of others. Best to do that face to face rather than over a forum.

Sheesh. Right wing = nazism. Left wing = sainthood. This is as bigoted a viewpoint as any other. The political spectrum is not one-dimensional. It's just a model journalists use to dumb down complex situations to something their stupidest readers can understand.

In some situations hierarchies are beneficial, and in others you want to see parity. Economically, in some situations nationalization, higher taxes and capitalist principled policies are the best fit, and in others you might look towards centralization, lower taxes and socialist principled policies. Choosing wrong will net you less victory points. You can't just choose one and stick to it. This isn't a religion where you are trying to live according to some arbitrary conception of perfection and holiness. This is the real world where you have to look at cause and effect and make decisions pragmatically.

If you live by simple models you've set yourself up for making mistakes, and it's a direct path to extremism (AKA: zero-dimensional politics/values). This goes for the left and right wings. Extreme lefties are as nutty as anyone.

Whether some leavers voted based on racism isn't the point. I'm just trying to make clear that right-wing/left-wing doesn't mean racism/tolerance. Entirely separate concepts.

Nah, Aneurin, forums are great places for this stuff. You can write up longer arguments than you can be bothered to remember or people can be bothered to listen to in person, and therefore get deeper into the issue.

Let's just all be nice about it, hey. We're still going to have to face each other on Tuesday so let's keep it cheery

Sam wrote:Sheesh. Right wing = nazism. Left wing = sainthood. This is as bigoted a viewpoint as any other. The political spectrum is not one-dimensional. It's just a model journalists use to dumb down complex situations to something their stupidest readers can understand.

Whether some leavers voted based on racism isn't the point. I'm just trying to make clear that right-wing/left-wing doesn't mean racism/tolerance. Entirely separate concepts.

Not sure if this was aimed at my "rise of the right" history post there. But just to clarify my point, saying "very right wing" was intended to highlight how it's the extremity thats the issue, not the right or leftness of it. In hindishgt I should've used words like "far" or something to make this more clear. Either way, as I said, my throw away doom mongering is based on things that are happeneing right now in europe irrespective of the referendum.

Yeah, actual racism in what we call the far-right groups across Europe is... an interesting problem. But I don't think that staying or leaving Europe is relevant. If resentment towards minorities can be traced to free movement  than insisting on free movement isn't a solution — but closing borders isn't a solution either. So the solution lies in other channels, and those demeaning this as being a victory for racism perhaps aren't looking at it holistically. Leavers are realizing that this vote was not a way to "solve immigration", and I think the Remainers will find it's not about a way to "fight racism" either. So, voting for the wrong reasons on both sides.

I think with this in mind, when you get away from the sensationalization of immigration and racism, when people chill out a little, I think people might realize that what is going on in Brussels is a bit crap, and getting away from it all is a plus.

Now, maybe it's because I haven't had a coffee today yet, but I really don't know what Sam is going on about with his ferry story.

Sam wrote: So, voting for the wrong reasons on both sides.

Its almost as if both sides of the campaign were shockingly bad at giving people real information to base a decision on.

Sam wrote:
I think with this in mind, when you get away from the sensationalization of immigration and racism, when people chill out a little, I think people might realize that what is going on in Brussels is a bit crap, and getting away from it all is a plus.

Yes, there were positives to leaving that now might become silver linings. We'll just have to wait and see how it all pans out, I guess.

Sam wrote:Now, maybe it's because I haven't had a coffee today yet, but I really don't know what Sam is going on about with his ferry story.

Some xenophobes bought the last stella and wasted it, so he had to drink vodka and spent the day mad dogging them as a result...

by the sounds of it.

Oh, AND they ruined a perfectly good couch he had his eye on.

Sam wrote:
Let's just all be nice about it, hey. We're still going to have to face each other on Tuesday so let's keep it cheery

Hmmm... this is my point really, this whole EU disaster is something I feel very strongly about. But one of the main reasons I like to play boardgames is to escape from the shitness of everyday life. If I wrote on here what I really thought, I'm sure it would be offensive to at least one person, and I'd rather keep my boardgaming escapism separate from everyday drudgery. You guys go for it however! I'll stop reading this thread... see you on Tuesday!

evan wrote:

Sam wrote:
Let's just all be nice about it, hey. We're still going to have to face each other on Tuesday so let's keep it cheery

Hmmm... this is my point really, this whole EU disaster is something I feel very strongly about. But one of the main reasons I like to play boardgames is to escape from the shitness of everyday life. If I wrote on here what I really thought, I'm sure it would be offensive to at least one person, and I'd rather keep my boardgaming escapism separate from everyday drudgery. You guys go for it however! I'll stop reading this thread... see you on Tuesday!

I felt the same Evan, didn't want to fan the flames or upset anyone. However, I think it's a sign of a healthy group, that we can all express our perspectives and not get offended. It's just that too; different perspectives, points of view as a consequence of our different life experience.

Of course, the difference being, that mine is the correct one, and you're all gravely mistaken.

Only joking. Glad we're all on friendly terms.

Sam wrote:Now, maybe it's because I haven't had a coffee today yet, but I really don't know what Sam is going on about with his ferry story.

I'll assume you're being literal here and offer a less subtle anecdote witnessed by a friend of mine in Sheffield this morning:

Was woken up at 7.30 this morning by a black British man shouting "Fuck Immigrants, go home, this is my country, you're nothing, your father's a rapist, etc" at an unseen person. Goes on for 30 mins. A white British man walks past shouting "You fucking niggers will be next" They almost come to blows next to the cathedral tram stop...
What the fuck has happened?

What's happened is these people have been emboldened by winning. Still don't believe me?

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153842562976939/
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

This is what the Leave campaign was won on. That and lies. The remain campaign was built of similar lies but without most of the xenophobia. Shit all round. Bullingdon club in-fighting. No real information. No worthwhile media coverage. A complete belittling of what expert evidence was prevented. A travesty of so-called democracy. Shameful all round.

Yes Aneurin, I'm angry that the wrong decision was made. But I was angry about the whole thing regardless. And I have to say I'm somewhere on the bemused-disturbed-angry scale about the levels of denial in the leave camp.

I informed one leave voter today that leaving the EU could well mean the UK having less control over immigration. They weren't best pleased when they realised that.

You have a way of attracting them Sam - maybe we should have a Samxit vote?

psychomansam wrote:

Sam wrote:Now, maybe it's because I haven't had a coffee today yet, but I really don't know what Sam is going on about with his ferry story.

I'll assume you're being literal here and offer a less subtle anecdote witnessed by a friend of mine in Sheffield this morning:

Was woken up at 7.30 this morning by a black British man shouting "Fuck Immigrants, go home, this is my country, you're nothing, your father's a rapist, etc" at an unseen person. Goes on for 30 mins. A white British man walks past shouting "You fucking niggers will be next" They almost come to blows next to the cathedral tram stop...
What the fuck has happened?

So what did your friend do?

There's always wasters hanging around the Cathedral (usually drinking tins of Polish beer). These people have always existed they're just feeling more bold now, as you say. It'll right itself again when they start getting arrested for inciting violence or generally being tossers, or getting put down by other people.

Again, there's a saying for this: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing", so if you see shit like that happening, say something. You're a big lad sam, they might listen

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075?edition=uk&q7fzuxr=

Well if I saw two racists fighting, I think I'd be pleased to leave them to it. I was considering intervening on the ferry but the merry British bigots moved off just as things were escalating and the other group couldnt speak english so I couldn't do much to console them.

Freedom for Britain!

Johnson pledges EU co-operation after referendum result
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36637037

I'm getting increasingly confused about this whole situation. The way BoJo the clown and company are going on it's like they didn't actually want to leave the EU. It's almost as if they were a bunch of small children screaming and stamping their feet for sweets but when they get what they want they decide they wanted something else after all.

I want us to just get on with it now, trigger Article 50 and be done with it. Cameron should have triggered it for them and then resigned. It's an absolute shambles. Even the Labour Party can't hold it together.